Human Rights and Chavismo/Madurismo

September 22, 2015

DDHH

I am sure that I am not the only one offended by the picture above. Chavismo not only blatantly violates Human Rights, but on top of it, has the audacity to hold an event to promote the content of its 2015-2019 National Plan for Human rights, under the heading: “Venezuela a country guarantor of Human Rights”

The plan itself ignores the country’s Human Rights reality. In Geneva, the UN found the Venezual’s homicide rate to be one of the most profound violations in Human Rights, there have been 231 thousand homicides under Chavismo, but the document presented by the Maduro Government fails to mention  homicides at all and the “consultation” period for the plan ends in only a week.

And while this plan is being built up, written and delivered, the Maduro Government created out of the blue, a series of violations of Human Rights at the Colombia/Venezuela border, which are not mentioned either. To say nothing of the infamous OLP’s, police and military operations, which come into barrios and kill people, like on the Cota 905 in Caracas in July, when around 18 people were killed in these “operation”, without the People’s Ombudsman, ironically called the People’s Defender in Venezuela, saying anything about it.

To someone like me, who was born under the Perez Jimenez Dictatorship in the 50’s and witnessed the horrors of the South American Dictatorships in the 60’s and 70’s, the ability of Chavismo to ignore and disrespect Human Rights is quite difficult to understand, let alone the deafening silence by those Governing Chile, Argentina, Brasil and other countries, whose Presidents and Government officials and their families were victims of the same Dictatorships.

But while those that followed the Dictatorships in the 70’s and 80’s made sure to guarantee Human Rights in the future by creating legal instruments that bound all countries by commonly accepted Human Rights principles, those that followed them in Government, all “left wing”,  seemed to have forgotten the past and decided to simply ignore Human Rights.

And while the Government holds these bombastic  Human Rights events, officials screw up at every turn in clear demonstration that Human Rights is not even discussed extensively within the Government.

Take Jacqueline Faria, for example, a PSUV member who dared say “All of those that are legally in our territory have their Human Rights guaranteed”

How cynic can you get? If you are illegal, you simply have no Human Rights, as has been clearly demonstrated by the treatment of Colombians along the border, which has actually caught some legal Colombians in the process, but nobody is around to defend them anyway.

And the People’s Defender had the gull to say that student Marcos Coello’s accusations of torture had no validity, because he had become a fugitive of Justice, as if Coello was supposed to stay and suffer more torture, as a way of promoting his cause. The truth is that Coello had denounced repeatedly how he was tortured in Mr. Saab’s office, before Mr. Saab became Ombudsman, but the case was simply shelved. Coellos’ mother wrote a wonderful letter to Mr. Saab, noting that on March 17th. 2014, Coello’s case was presented to his office and the Prosecutor’s office, which were followed up later in March and once again in June, but to the date, as Mr. Coello decided to leave the country and become a “fugitive” with no Human Rights, according to Saab, the Prosecutor’s office has not moved a finger to investigate the student’s torture or his tortures.

And let’s not forget Ines Gonzales, “Inesita La Terrible“, a Ph.D. in Chemistry, who was jailed 18 months ago for taunting the intelligence police in her tweets. Today we hear that Saab will “mediate” so that the Judge can allow her to leave jail and  have a complete hysterectomy. But Saab should mediate to have her freed, because tweeting your opinions is a right guaranteed by the Constitution.

But what does he know?

But Saab, much like his predecessors in the position, could care less about Human Rights. Human Rights are Human Rights, they do not depend on whether you are free, in jail, a fugitive or “legally” in Venezuela or not. They have to be respected and those in charge of enforcing them are supposed to do just that. In fact, I am sure that Farias and Saab are careful enough not to say that Human Rights are guaranteed only to those legally in Venezuela and those that support the Government. Because in the end, Chavistas seem to have more “rights” than others, or opposition members seem to have fewer rights than Chavistas. But in the end, Chavismo could care less about Human Rights. Those that are victims of homicides are more likely to have been or be Government supporters than opposition and the rate of homicides has never been a priority since Chávez arrived in 1998. And neither are many of the rights guaranteed by the Venezuelan Constitution.

But maybe I am just an innocent flower child of the 60’s and 70’s.

But wait, so were Bachelet, Roussef and many of those that today ignore the Human Rights gains of the 80’s and 90’s and place their commercial interests above Human Rights and Democratic (With a capital D) rights in Venezuela…

And yes, I may have been an innocent, naive, flower child of the 60’s and 70’s, but I will not forget. If we ever get rid of these people, I will be around to write about the barbaric acts and statements by Saab, Farias and their cohorts. I will use my blog and records to emphasize that I will only reconcile with those that were not involved in Human Rights violations and that crimes against humanity never expire.

Maybe nobody will listen, but I will be there…

 

 

 

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82 Responses to “Human Rights and Chavismo/Madurismo”

  1. Abraham Setrakian Says:

    Regarding the WSJ timing of the release of the unsealed indictments. This is the US government’s version of Information Operations. It’s a very good move. The silence is deafening…you can hear a pin drop. The local media is scared shitless. The Bolivarians where aware since at least July. Warning shot has been fired. They know there’s more to come. Escalation and militarization of the conflct in the cards. I think the principals understand the stakes.

  2. Leo Rendon Says:

    The Power in Venezuela is concentrated in the hands of just three families who control government coffers, media and now, pop culture

    La “primera combatiente” de Venezuela Cilia Flores y su cartera de los 480 salarios mínimos

    Reconocidas y costosas marcas de moda como Chanel y Mario Hernández están entre los gustos de Cilia Flores,esposa de Nicolas Maduro y de la canciller venezolana Delcy Rodríguez,mientras en el pais no hay suficiente dolares para importar comida y medicinas. http://www.informador.in/la-primera-combatiente-de-venezuela-cilia-flores-y-su-cartera-de-los-480-salarios-minimos/

  3. Dave Says:

    It’s useless to bring up the past. THis goes for both sides. Estamos en guerra!

  4. Dave Says:

    Miguel, I think the PSFs are experimenting with chinese chemicals in their Kool Aid.

  5. Sukhoi crash update Says:

    the Sukhoi cockpit audio leaks and radar imagery is coming from reputable colombian sources. Keep in mind the Colombians monitor Venezuelan military channels. The lead aircraft crashed while flying low in darkness. They stumbled upon a regime protected narco-plane operation in progress in the area surrounding town of Elorza. The Sukhois where on patrol that put them in middle of drug corridor. I believe pilots made decision to engage. IOW, the Air Force attacked a protected drug operation belonging to the bigwigs i.e Pretty Eyes and gang. This is complicated with events happening before including the railroading of fellow pilots influencing the outcome.

    Regarding saber rattling with neighbors. He’s crazy but not that crazy.

    • Mapping Says:

      Please continue to provide details! And sources, if available. The named locations are here: http://i.imgur.com/IgQxSY0.jpg

    • Ira Says:

      This is too nutty to believe:

      How the hell is a military jet going to engage…engage what and how exactly…an aircraft in flight? And they were going to shoot it down?

      And they were able to determine all this…a narco aircraft via what means and how we don’t know…but couldn’t figure out how high they were in the sky and thus crashed into the ground?

      I’m sticking with equipment malfunction, because that Russian jet is a piece of shit unless 100% properly maintained.

  6. Mitchell Says:

    You only have Human Rights if you side with, promote, and support the illegitimate govt in power right now in VZLA. They can say whatever they like, but for peoples living in free countries, with true Human Rights for everyone, we can see clearly what goes on there. The lies, no matter how often repeated, will never make them true. The shame that falls on other S.A. leaders is the shame of their nation, for one day they may very well be in the same situation again. Those who do not learn of history are condemned to repeat it.

  7. Paul Says:

    Excellent analysis….the stage photo actually looks like a who’s who of human rights violators!

  8. Samer Sader Says:

    Venezuela has lost so much. Keep documenting maybe someone in the future will learn a couple of lessons

  9. onetrillionzimbas Says:

    Happy eclipse Miguel

  10. moctavio Says:

    I dont like serial posting of anonymous cryptic comments or just links. If you have something to say, do it

  11. onetrillionzimbas Says:

    study dont delet

  12. Ronaldo Says:

    Human rights are for everyone on the planet. One day Chavismo may turn on all the people in the photo and they will scream for human rights which will not appear. They will reap what they sow.

  13. Boludo Tejano Says:

    I am reminded of the Videla Junta’s propaganda response to the multiple and justified charges of violations of human rights [ derechos humanos] . “Los Argentinos somos derechos e humanos.” [We Argentines are just and humane].

    Evita III: how do you like them apples- your Chavista buddies being compared to the milicos?

  14. From Brussels Says:

    Great post Miguel!!

  15. Noel Says:

    Once and for all, the horrors of Venezuela and the refusal of the rest of Latin America to speak up has demolished the myth of a regional community. The U.S. used to speak up, but lately it hasn’t.

    Every country is on its own. When Uribe decided to go after Reyes at the Colombia/Ecuador border he was pilloried. Yes, the Chilean military committed atrocities, but many Chileans over 55, looking at Venezuela today, must wonder what their future could have been otherwise.


  16. “Human Rights are Human Rights, they do not depend on whether you are free, in jail, a fugitive or “legally” in Venezuela or not. They have to be respected and those in charge of enforcing them are supposed to do just that. […] Because in the end, Chavistas seem to have more “rights” than others, or opposition members seem to have fewer rights than Chavistas.”

    “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”
    ― George Orwell, Animal Farm

    Una situación tristemente similar.

  17. Tony Tan Keng Yam Says:

    “..born under the Perez Jimenez Dictatorship in the 50’s and witnessed the horrors of the South American Dictatorships in the 60’s and 70’s, the ability of Chavismo to ignore and disrespect Human Rights is quite difficult to understand.”

    To compare Benevolent, constructive Dictatorships like Perez Jimenez or Pinchet and Vzla’s Chavismo Destructive Dictatorship in terms of Human Rights:

    Pinochet: After 17 years, 3000 dead. Best country in Latin America today.

    Chavismo: After 17 years: 250,000 dead. Worst country in the World today.

    Just imagine what Vzla would be today if a “good” authoritarian regime had been in power, instead of Chavismo’s utter disaster.

    For one thing, 1 Quarter Million people would not have been murdered, and we would have Qatar, Dubai or Singapore’s infrastructure.

    And most people still dream the Chavista-light MUD will be able to fix Cubazuela now..

    • RobertoN Says:

      To state that the PJ Dictatorship was benevolent is at best, disingenuous.

      Miguel is not the only one who lived in it. Many still alive to this day who oppose Chavism suffered at the hands of PJ and Pedro Estrada.

      PJ was so beloved that he had to cheat himself into an election, betray the Junta, rig another election and ignore the results of a referendum.

      Sound familiar?

      Throwing people who think differently to you from Airplanes, disappearing them, etc. is a lot worse than what even Chavism has done.

      Nice of you not to include those in your 3000 figure for Chile. Also nice that you only mention the “lowball” number, when other sources estimate it could have been 10,000 killed.

      Officially recognized BY Chile, about 36.000 tortured and about 200,000 forced into exile. Many of those exiled had their passports stamped to mark them as persona non grata.

      Hmm, sound familiar? Hell, Chavismo can’t touch those numbers but you ADMIRE the man who DID make those numbers real.

      Yep, nice place to be, Chile was in those years.

      We do not need Chavism, nor PJism, nor Pinochetism to solve our problems.

      So sure, let’s go ahead and round up all the Chavistas we can and torture them, and disappear them and kill them, even if they are minor functionaries in the Ministry of Cabezas de ñame. I’m sure that the seeds for revenge will not be sown and we’ll all live happily ever after.

      Democracies take work in order to function. Hard work, many times unheralded and unremarked, yet all the more satisfying ultimately.

      I will never justify Chavismo, nor will I justify any other form of dictatorship.

      You are free to believe what you wish, just don’t ask the rest of us to follow you down that rabbit hole.

      • Tony Tan Keng Yam Says:

        Pinochet’s Chile : 3000 dead; Best country in Latin America.
        Chavez’s Vzla: 250000 dead: Worst country on the planet.

        I do not admire Pinochet or MPJ, but look at each country when they were done. Same for Singapore, etc.

        Want more Chavismo, AD,Copey/Mudcrap? Sure, enjoy the 25,000 dead per month, destroyed economy, etc.

        • RobertoN Says:

          No, I do not want AD/COPEI (Copey, btw is a shrub not a political party or a town in Colombia, take your pick), MUD or none of that crap.

          I do prefer them to what we have now, as a stepping stone to something better.

          You don’t admire Pinochet or MPJ, coulda fooled me!

          The ends do NOT justify the means.

          • Tony Tan Keng Yam Says:

            I repeat: Imagine Vzla after 17 years of Pinochet, MPJ or Mysef, instead of 17 years of Chavismo.

            Better than Qatar or Chile or Singapour. Cost? 1 Quarter Million less people murdered.

          • RobertoN Says:

            There are NUMEROUS places around the world where Dictators were not needed to develop into great countries.

            The same fallacious reasoning you argue put none other than Hugo Chavez Frias in power.

            Is your memory that short? Or perhaps you weren’t old enough to care back then or you didn’t give a crap.

            I remember perfectly well how people were fed up with AD/COPEI etc. How they were looking for a strongman to set things right. Look at where we ended up because people wanted SOMEONE ELSE to take care of things.

            17 years of just about anyone would have been better than Chavez/Maduro, but that does not justify asking for it again.

            Someone said that one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result each time…….

      • Ira Says:

        I guess a lot of this is a matter of degree:

        Let’s not forget that Abraham Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus during the Civil War.

        But that status of “war” made it more palatable for people to accept (and more “legal?”, who knows), not to mention that it was more than a 125-plus years ago. In other words:

        Lincoln’s actions took place in a different world, as did Pinochet’s. So were they WRONG?

        Looking at Chile and the U.S. today, you can’t avoid but being brought smack up against that indisputable euphemism:

        “Nothing succeeds like success.”

        • RobertoN Says:

          Again, I’ll make my point as I did above. Plenty of places around the world that developed just fine without resorting to dictatorship.

          Lincoln was not only fighting slavery, he was also fighting the southern economy that depended on enslaving humans.

          Plenty of folks in the American South saw him as a dictator.

          Ask yourself this:

          IF Chavez had stayed within bounds of the law, if he had not kidnapped our institutions and if the GODDAMN opposition had not given away the Assembly in 2005, where would we be today?

          I wager Chavez would have been, at most, a two term president and a footnote in the annals of “strange but true”.

          Asking for a dictator is like asking to be cured of Cancer by getting Leprosy

          • Ira Says:

            Roberto, you really have to study your American history more closely.

            Lincoln only created the Emancipation Proclamation to punish Confederate states after they seceded from the Union:

            States that stayed in the Union were allowed to keep their slaves.

            It’s the biggest misconception about Lincoln ever, and he said if he could keep the union together without freeing a single slave, he would do it.

            The Confederacy came about and those states seceded from FEAR of losing their right to slavery, although no Federal action was taking place to make that happen.

  18. Gabriel Garcia Says:

    The first thing they teach in gerrilla and/or warfare schools is “Civil no es gente”…

  19. Maurizio Grandi Says:

    Since you are such a good writer, I suggest you could start a list of names who have violated the constitution and their alleged violation, asking for readers collaboration, so we all keep them in mind for when justice will be re instituted. Rest assured that moment is near .


  20. It took me a long time to understand that most governments are morally bankrupt and very flexible when it comes to human rights violations. When it comes to violations elsewhere, that’s even more so. And if the abuses are committed by extreme leftists or communists they are more likely to be ignored. The same applies to theocratic regimes like Saudi Arabia and Israel.

    In this world we are pretty much alone when it comes to freedom. Those who want to be free have choices: run away from abuses and dictatorship, or be prepared to die fighting for Liberty. Most people do neither.

    • Ira Says:

      Your understanding of the definition of theocracy is severely flawed.

      • RobertoN Says:

        I dunno, Ira, both nations mentioned have religion as either the central tenet for it’s existence and/or the religion forms the basis for it’s laws, mores and customs.

        For the Saudis more so than for Israel, and yet while in Israel secularism only goes so far, Orthodox Jews play a larger role in shaping their society and government than many Christian religions do around the world.

        The main reason they justified the creation of the State of Israel was that Jews deserved a homeland. Zionism to this day has as a central tenet that Israel should encompass everything including the West Bank and Gaza, and it is to be so because Yahweh said so.

        A religion being “entitled” to a homeland strikes pretty close to Theocracy, but falls a bit short of full fledged Theocracy. You cannot, however, argue there aren’t elements of Theocracy in Israel’s DNA, elements that to this day, despite all attempts by more enlightened Israelis to build a secular state, are essential to its continuance.

        • Gordo Says:

          Orthodox Jews are a minority.

        • Ira Says:

          Theocracy relates to power endowed to a country’s leader by God–the religion of the people is irrelevant. So a country like the U.K would be considered more of a theocracy than most other countries. As it was in the past though, since nowadays, the monarch holds no real power.

          The Saudi Arabian king and princes hardly consider themselves anointed by God as is in a true Theocracy, and the example of Israel is simply baseless, which elects its PM and other representatives through the ballot.

          Of course, Israel is always open to special criticism because they’re Jewish, and no surprise there. Israel’s Jewish character is hardly any different than the U.S., which prides itself as being a Christian nation. Or the Catholic countries of Central and South America. Or Muslim countries of the Middle East.

          So the term theocracy no more applies to Israel than it does anywhere else these days…

          Unless you wish to put Venezuela in that category, whose leader believes he is so chosen by God that he sent him a little birdie as a sign.

          Now THAT’S what I call Theocracy.

          • RobertoN Says:

            Makes sense, I stand corrected.

            • Ira Says:

              I’m curious now to research which countries ARE still considered Theocracies by the dictionary definition of the word.

              There might an Asian nation or two, possibly Malaysia? Not sure.


          • Israel’s government derives its power at this time be caused Jews achieved a majority based on religious affilitiation.

            The state secured a majority Jewish population by importing Jewish immigrants and ethnically cleansing Muslims (ethnic cleansing in this case being defined as the removal of a large portion of a native population by force).

            Thus the “democracy” is closer to a theocracy. I’m agnostic, therefore I find easier to be objective.

            • Ira Says:

              Muslim weren’t expelled from the newly created nation of Israel. Many left on their own accord, and many were moved within the new state. More important, Palestine never existed–Palestinians are actually Jordanians.

              In addition, I never heard an immigration policy ever categorized as “importing” immigrants, especially considering the Holocaust and those displaced people, plus those Jews living around the world suffering from oppression (the USSR), and starvation (Ethiopia). Israel’s open door policy for Jews is an act of both faith (they call it Aliyah), but more so simply compassion:

              However, since they’re Jews, you twist this into a NEGATIVE–rendering your argument pretty specious. Not to mention anti-Semitic.

              But again, your understanding of the textbook definition of Theocracy is still incorrect, regardless of this tangent you went off on.

            • Ira Says:

              I would also like you to explain India and Pakistan:

              According to your definition, theocracies as well.

              Wow–this list could get really long according to your definition of theocracy.

              Shall I keep adding countries which you consider theocracies? Or is this criticism only reserved for Jews, and just one Muslim nation ruled by a monarch?

            • m_astera Says:

              Hey Ira, can the BS. The crusades were fought/waged over the control of Palestine. And as Palestine it was marked on every map until 1947 or ’48.
              Jordan did not exist until 1921 when Winston Churchill invented it.

            • Ira Says:

              Really? The Crusades weren’t fought to impose Christianity–it was simply a territorial thing?

              Also, did Palestine ever have a currency? A king? A government? A people distinct from the Jordanians?

              Talk about bullshit! Astera, this post makes you champion!

              You single-handedly invented a country where none existed (a territory by the way which was also home to many Jews)…and you wish to deny the existence of the country that actually does!

            • .5mt Says:

              What country with a rational government would import jooooooooooooos? They are argumentative, bull headed and vote however they like, this is only partly off set by their geld and notorious good looking wymens. Come to think of it maybe we can import single Joooooooooooo wymens and their cash.

            • Ira Says:

              I’m waiting to hear Astera’s claim to the land as a Palestinian state, where no such state ever existed.

              I’m also waiting to hear how this land was somehow granted to MUSLIMS, although Muslims and Jews lived side by side their for decades.

              I await his ignorant, anti-Semitic reply!

            • RobertoN Says:

              Well Ira,let’s see.

              My family, Palestinians, can trace their permanence in Bethlehem for the last 700 years.

              How many Jews imported from the world over to Israel can lay that claim?

              I can take you anytime you want to see the written records.

              No doubt there have always been Jews in what you call Israel, but over 90% of those there today cannot go back more than 2 maybe 3 generations before you find they came from Poland, Russia, Germany etc.

              We are NOT Jordanians, you tell yourself that to somehow assuage your conscience perhaps. Different tribes, Ira, don’t be so ignorant.

              Jews claim the right to found their own state in what was known for ages as Palestine. A place that has seen numerous conquerors over the centuries.

              My own family name derives from one of my ancestors liberating Bethlehem from the Ottomans in the early 1800’s.

              Jews claim they have an historical right to their own country.

              This is all based on writings that at a very fundamental level say : “Because our God said so”, writings that did not come from God, they came from Humans who wrote whatever they felt like writing to justify their actions.

              Given that logic, let’s give the USA back to the Native Americans from whom it was stolen then. They had a culture, nations, laws and an economy.

              Shall we start with your property? Perhaps to make it palatable to you we can start with the property of Chavistas here in the US, then move on?

              You make it sound like we left of our own accord, just decided one day to seek different horizons.

              We were massacred by Irgun & Haganah, we were imprisoned by the British who kept us from being armed. At every step of the way we were handicapped, betrayed (even by other Arabs) and kept from any semblance of Justice by those far stronger than us.

              No doubt that the Palestinians have handled this the wrong way in the past, and continue to do so today. I do not condone bombing, terrorism or other violent means employed, but it is easy to see how we fell into that given that all the cards were stacked against us.

              And no doubt that Israel was founded by zealots who justified their terrorism and murder in trying to reach the “greater good”. Ultimately, those Zionists that employed those methods will go to Hell, I heartily wish them a long stay there.

              I would much rather have peace and prosperity, but with people like Netan Yahoo around, breaking their word regarding settlement freezes and consciously choosing to prolong conflict I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

              We Palestinians also have our share of the blame, no question.

              Eventually, Israel will disappear under the weight of an Arab population that outbreeds you 3 to 1. IN time, we will again be the majority that cannot be ignored. It behooves Israel to start to treat us like human beings, lest our memories get the better of us and we have another pogrom, this time going your way instead of the one currently going our way.

              We are patient, we have seen conquerors come and go. You are not the first, nor will you be the last. We however will outlast you all……………..

            • Ira Says:

              Let’s take Roberto’s comments one by one, shall we?

              ROBERTO:

              “Well Ira,let’s see.

              “My family, Palestinians, can trace their permanence in Bethlehem for the last 700 years.

              “How many Jews imported from the world over to Israel can lay that claim?”

              ME:

              Because you claim your family can trace you back 700 years, that means the Muslim Palestinian population at large can be be so traced? Did you ever take statistics in college, and since when were Jews ever entered into official census records? YOUR story is no more valid than the JEWISH story, many of whom can also be traced centuries back. (Big deal, that’s not the issue here.)

              ROBERTO:

              “I can take you anytime you want to see the written records.”

              ME:

              I don’t believe this at all.

              ROBERTO:

              ‘No doubt there have always been Jews in what you call Israel, but over 90% of those there today cannot go back more than 2 maybe 3 generations before you find they came from Poland, Russia, Germany etc.

              ME:

              It doesn’t matter whether 90% of those there today can claim centuries old lineage. Which of course is a ridiculous claim to begin with–since the entire Hebrew nation, the ENTIRE Hebrew nation, was spawned from this land of Israel.

              Is this too difficult for you to understand? Let me explain it to you:

              All Jews are descendants of the original 12 tribes of the land called Israel. Nothing to do with questionable Biblical prophecy. Simple fact, and demographics.

              ROBERTO:

              “We are NOT Jordanians, you tell yourself that to somehow assuage your conscience perhaps. Different tribes, Ira, don’t be so ignorant.”

              ME:

              Don’t be so naive. You’re part of the Trans-Jordan people. You can’t rewrite history to suit your agenda.

              ROBERTO:

              “Jews claim the right to found their own state in what was known for ages as Palestine. A place that has seen numerous conquerors over the centuries.

              “My own family name derives from one of my ancestors liberating Bethlehem from the Ottomans in the early 1800’s.

              “Jews claim they have an historical right to their own country.

              This is all based on writings that at a very fundamental level say : “Because our God said so”, writings that did not come from God, they came from Humans who wrote whatever they felt like writing to justify their actions.

              ME:

              No, and I don’t understand why this is so difficult for you to understand. You are not only showing your ignorance of geopolitics, you are showing your total ignorance about the Israel mandate:

              While for some there is a “religious” justification for the creation of the state of Israel, in the real world, it’s simply a legal and political justification. It was voted in/for at the U.N., and has nothing to do with religion at ALL. More to do with the aftermath of the Holocaust than anything else. THAT’S the fact.

              And in case you didn’t know, REAL Orthodox Jews were against the creation of Israel, and many still are, because the Old Testament says that the Jews will not return to Arat Israel until the savior comes. (Jesus for Christians, not for Jews.)

              You should know this stuff. Religious justification for the creation of the state of Israel has been a MINOR part of the equation. Yes, it’s mentioned, but certainly nowhere as mentioned as the Quran urges Muslims to kill all infidels.

              ROBERTO:

              “Given that logic, let’s give the USA back to the Native Americans from whom it was stolen then. They had a culture, nations, laws and an economy.

              ME:

              Given what logic? What the hell are you talking about? Who’s giving back anything to anyone?

              ROBERTO:

              “Shall we start with your property? Perhaps to make it palatable to you we can start with the property of Chavistas here in the US, then move on?”

              ME:

              I’ll address this when I understand what point you’re actually trying to make.

              ROBERTO:

              “You make it sound like we left of our own accord, just decided one day to seek different horizons.

              “We were massacred by Irgun & Haganah, we were imprisoned by the British who kept us from being armed. At every step of the way we were handicapped, betrayed (even by other Arabs) and kept from any semblance of Justice by those far stronger than us.

              “No doubt that the Palestinians have handled this the wrong way in the past, and continue to do so today. I do not condone bombing, terrorism or other violent means employed, but it is easy to see how we fell into that given that all the cards were stacked against us.”

              ME:

              No you weren’t. Again, you’re rewriting history.

              You refused to accept living under the laws of a Jewish state, and you were welcomed to stay. But your Grand Muftah (ally of Hitler, by the way), declared that the Israel state will not stand.

              ROBERTO:

              “And no doubt that Israel was founded by zealots who justified their terrorism and murder in trying to reach the “greater good”. Ultimately, those Zionists that employed those methods will go to Hell, I heartily wish them a long stay there.”

              ME:

              Believe me–they had to create a new hell for the Palestinian terrorist garbage who has polluted this planet for the past few decades. Whereas those who helped found Israel wore tattoos on their arms, coming straight from the concentration camps.

              Do you actually want to compare the moral muscle of Palestinians to those of Israel? You make me laugh. You, who support the terrorism of your morally bankrupt people.

              ROBERTO:

              “I would much rather have peace and prosperity, but with people like Netan Yahoo around, breaking their word regarding settlement freezes and consciously choosing to prolong conflict I don’t see that happening anytime soon.”

              ME:

              My God, you are so full of shit.

              ROBERTO”

              “We Palestinians also have our share of the blame, no question.”

              ME:

              No, you share most of the blame. You never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Look at the leaders you choose. Look at your friends and family cheering when the the planes hit the Twin Towers.

              And you wonder why you disgust so many of us?

              ROBERTO:

              “Eventually, Israel will disappear under the weight of an Arab population that outbreeds you 3 to 1. IN time, we will again be the majority that cannot be ignored. It behooves Israel to start to treat us like human beings, lest our memories get the better of us and we have another pogrom, this time going your way instead of the one currently going our way.”

              ME:

              Egypt is against you. Saudi Arabia is against you. Jordan is against you.

              NO ONE IN THE ARAB WORLD CARES ABOUT THE PALESTINIAN CAUSE BECAUSE OF YOUR REFUSAL TO ACCEPT PEACE!

              ROBERTO:

              “We are patient, we have seen conquerors come and go. You are not the first, nor will you be the last.”

              ME:

              Good for you! But I hope your patience can last a few centuries.

              Because Israel isn’t going anywhere soon, and the Palestinian cause has never looked weaker.

            • RobertoN Says:

              Ira:

              You don’t believe there are written records going back 700 years, but you do believe in a Torah and Talmud that were written much farther back?

              That is Chutzpah if I ever saw it. How arrogant of you to dismiss this. It definitely defines you.

              The permanence of my family in the area is an answer to your fallacious statement regarding the non existence of Palestine. It also is in response to your statement regarding the 12 tribes. My ancestors have been there for 700 years, the majority of the Jews in Israel today come from Europe, and their ancestors were GONE from PALESTINE for so long they cannot logically claim to be of that land anymore.

              So your ancestors were kicked out of Palestine over 1000 years ago, and this gives you the right to return. Same for Native Americans then, or is it OK for you but not others because you’re “Special”? The “chosen” ones? Chosen by whom? A burning bush? This is why I regard the Christian bible as a work of fiction, just like the Torah, Talmud, Quran, etc. It’s all “we have the truth and you do not” at the end of the day. Written by humans with murky motives to justify numerous sins.

              Not all Arabs are Muslims. Many of us are Christians.

              The fact that my ancestor did liberate Bethlehem from the Ottomans is all anyone with 4 fingers of forehead needs to know that I come from a Christian background. Once again your ignorance and prejudice shine through. I suppose you are a birther too? I mean we all KNOW Obama is a Muslim right?

              You should feel shame defending the Chavistas of the Middle East.

              Unlike them, you should acknowledge that there is intransigence on both sides, that there are leaders on both sides always willing to torpedo any chance of peace. So please don’t insult the rest of us trying to convince us that Netanyahu is some kind of Nobel Peace Prize candidate.

              Plenty of blood on both hands in the conflict.

              I will not be replying to any more of your rabid comments regarding this subject. Rail away all you want. You’ll be talking to the hand.

              When you are ready to talk peace, in a calm rational manner I will listen.

              Until then, don’t hold your breath.

              Shalom!

            • Kepler Says:

              Ira,

              This is something few will like on either side but most Palestinians are actually the descendants of the original Canaanites, the same who then became Jews and then Christians.
              There is some but definitely less “Jewish” ancestry in the Ashkenazi who arrived to Palestine from the late XIX century than in the Arabs who are living like prisoners in the Occupied Territories now.

              By the way: I have a DNA pattern that puts me as possible descendant of the so-called “Y-chromosomal Aaron”, like so many current Jews and non-Jews

            • Ira Says:

              Roberto, you should feel shame for not understanding international law nor history. Or at the very least, you should feel awful embarrassment:

              Nation’s borders are determined by negotiations, as well as wars. This has always been the case, and always WILL be the case.

              Israel was founded on such principles, both by the Balfour Declaration, U.N. vote, and Arab wars against them. To the victors go the spoils:

              And in what unverse do you think that Jews aren’t entitled to the spoils of war, when attacked…more than once…by their Islamic “peace-loving” neighbors?

              Sorry that the truth hurts, and if you think my comments are “rabid,” but looking at the reaction of the creation of a Jewish state near “peace-loving” Islamic countries (“peace-loving” repeated for literary effect)….

              I think it’s pretty clear to see who the real rabid ones are.

              If you’re going to be an anti-Semite, why the fuck don’t you have the balls to just admit it?

            • Kepler Says:

              Ira,

              You are probably an anti-Semitic yourself. After all: not only are the Arabs as semitic, if not more semitic than the current Jews. Palestinians are probably closer to the original Jews, much less Europenized, than the Ashkenazi who are now occupying land AGAINST UN DECLARATIONS!

              It is not surprising that Israel was cooperating with the Apartheid regime.

            • Ira Says:

              Kepler, the most idiotic, non-sensical position anyone can make is to take the accepted meaning of anti-Semitic to include Muslims.

              Congratulations for making it!

              Sorry, but your intellect…which is far lower than you believe it to be…doesn’t allow you to rewrite and redefine the lexicon.

              For example:

              I think that you’re an obnoxious asshole, but I don’t REALLY think that you’re an actual rectum from which shit exits. Only shit in the rhetorical sense, from your mouth.

              Get it?

            • Ira Says:

              Kepler, you’re also a Nazi apologist! Your many posts here prove it!

              You actually have the BALLS to condemn Israel, while claiming that the Nazi atrocities were carried out by Hitler alone…

              Without the collaboration and enthusiasm of millions of ordinary Germans!

              If you admit to those atrocities at all.

              Jesus, what a revisionist shmuck you are.

            • Kepler Says:

              Ira
              I do criticize Israel. I didn’t say anything about who was responsible for the WWII holocaust (which was not only against Jews, by the way). The coarse words you try to use against others might rather describe you.
              Are you going to go on crying anti-Semitic like a spoiled baby every time Israeli hawks carry out human right violations against other people and others want to react? Well, keep crying like a baby because less and less people will pay attention to you.
              Again: you are less descendant of the original Jews than a Palestinian Arab is. Probably you are as “Jewish” as any random person from the Mediterranean. And yet you think you are part of some “Chosen” People.
              Ira: we are in the XXI century, not in the Middle Ages. There is no chosen people and there is absolutely no people with more ethical ground than any other one.

  21. Roberto N Says:

    You can count on me to stand with you, Miguel.

  22. Petrous Says:

    The problem with promising to be there is assuming they will vanish in your or my lifetime… in my experience more often than not that is wishful thinking ….

  23. Pablo Henning Says:

    Only in Venezuela

    PH/713-530-4737

    >

  24. captainccs Says:

    Do you know of any military dictatorship that respects human rights? Do you know of any drug cartel that respects human rights?


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